From hfordsa at gmail.com  Thu May 29 09:10:31 2014
From: hfordsa at gmail.com (Heather Ford)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 08:10:31 +0100
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
Message-ID: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure if you've seen it, but the weirdest event is going down on the
Wikimedia-l mailing list with the new ED's partner, Wil Sinclair slinging
accusations at Wikimedia staff and volunteers and taking over the list with
almost 80 posts. He seems to be doing a great job of sabotaging her before
she's begun. I've seen a lot of weird on Wikimedia-l but this tops it.

Heather Ford
Oxford Internet Institute <http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk> Doctoral Programme
EthnographyMatters <http://ethnographymatters.net> | Oxford Digital
Ethnography Group <http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/research/projects/?id=115>
http://hblog.org | @hfordsa <http://www.twitter.com/hfordsa>
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From nathanieltkacz at gmail.com  Thu May 29 12:43:26 2014
From: nathanieltkacz at gmail.com (nathaniel tkacz)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 11:43:26 +0100
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>

it's sad and predictable.

n


On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 8:10 AM, Heather Ford <hfordsa at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not sure if you've seen it, but the weirdest event is going down on the
> Wikimedia-l mailing list with the new ED's partner, Wil Sinclair slinging
> accusations at Wikimedia staff and volunteers and taking over the list with
> almost 80 posts. He seems to be doing a great job of sabotaging her before
> she's begun. I've seen a lot of weird on Wikimedia-l but this tops it.
>
> Heather Ford
> Oxford Internet Institute <http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk> Doctoral Programme
> EthnographyMatters <http://ethnographymatters.net> | Oxford Digital
> Ethnography Group <http://www.oii.ox.ac.uk/research/projects/?id=115>
> http://hblog.org | @hfordsa <http://www.twitter.com/hfordsa>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cpov mailing list
> cpov at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/cpov_listcultures.org
>
>
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From joseph at reagle.org  Thu May 29 15:03:14 2014
From: joseph at reagle.org (Joseph Reagle)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 09:03:14 -0400
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53873012.7040800@reagle.org>

On 05/29/2014 06:43 AM, nathaniel tkacz wrote:
> it's sad and predictable. 

How can anything so weird be thought predictable? (Unless you are taking
Theresa Preston-Werner's meddling at GitHub as the new normal?)



From geert at xs4all.nl  Thu May 29 15:26:27 2014
From: geert at xs4all.nl (Geert Lovink)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 15:26:27 +0200
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
Message-ID: <DBB0F4D7-91E9-4A3B-94A3-5766D318B13E@xs4all.nl>

Sad and predicable or not, I hope the overall attitude towards initatives such as CPOV will change. Maybe CPOV itself has died but the critical engagement of people towards Wikipedia hasn't changed, I noticed over the years. The harsh way beginners are scared off by a small insider's group of White male engineers remains the core 'cultural' issue. Jimmy Wales has cultivated and reproduced that small circle and the old guard is now part of the problem called 'Wikipedia governance', despite numerous efforts to change that very culture, from inside, and outside (such as the CPOV network). Correct analysis? Geert


On 29 May 2014, at 3:03 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph at reagle.org> wrote:

> On 05/29/2014 06:43 AM, nathaniel tkacz wrote:
>> it's sad and predictable. 
> 
> How can anything so weird be thought predictable? (Unless you are taking
> Theresa Preston-Werner's meddling at GitHub as the new normal?)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> cpov mailing list
> cpov at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/cpov_listcultures.org
> 




From johanna.niesyto at googlemail.com  Thu May 29 16:18:38 2014
From: johanna.niesyto at googlemail.com (Johanna Niesyto)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 16:18:38 +0200
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <DBB0F4D7-91E9-4A3B-94A3-5766D318B13E@xs4all.nl>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
	<DBB0F4D7-91E9-4A3B-94A3-5766D318B13E@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CAGh=MP9VzLxz+rRHXKa2kznN7Wqm9QLC92LtH_KpTGrRZ5AD7g@mail.gmail.com>

yes and no, geert. it is also harder now than 2009 as wikipedia meta-sites
grow. 2/3 of wikipedia (de wikipedia?) are meta sites and i guess people
get tired in meta work or at least not attracted to wikipedia. who likes
bureaucracy?

there were projects like the teahouse and so on - but sadly they could'nt
change wp overall cultures. still, there new ideas and initiatives - here i
cologne just opened the first regional community space. i cross my fingers
that this will help not only foster the well established community but also
to interact with the outside. neverthless i find it hard to see how the
de-community reacted somewhat harshly on ideas leonhard brought up (see
comments
https://netzpolitik.org/2014/kommentar-wie-die-kluft-zwischen-wikipedia-und-wikimedia-zum-autorenschwund-beitraegt/).
he came up with the idea of paid community managers in order to reduce
the gap between wm and wp. it's just an idea that can be developed, also
against the backdrop of wp-bureaucracy that is needed and also against the
backdrop of links between wm and wp. these users might be voted by
community, might be part of the community, might be....

wp is getting instutionalized: while the number of wp-users scales down,
the number of de-chapter-members increases: 2004 they had only about 60
members ("vereinsmitglieder"), 2011 1.250 member and 2013 10.100 members
(see p. 26 https://www.wikimedia.de/images/a/a0/Wmde_jb_2013_RZ_web.pdf).
in order to preserve the public domains on the net we need these (symbolic)
actors that also speak politically resp. express the political idea of
wikipedia.

the gap between wp and wm is another central problem in my mind - not only
in terms of wp-governance as mentioned above but also in terms of open
culture politics. the german chapter is very much in favor of interacting
with cultural institution, civil society and last but not least lobbying
political institutions. however they face the challenge to activate their
members to join their political activities.

to me this is not only about public affairs and the 'big' politics - there
are minimal politics (marchart) which have to be made visible. and
honestly, it doesn't help to hide politics and to put the social in the
foreground as jimmy wales does (see interview
http://transnationalspaces.net/2013/03/27/interview-with-jimmy-wales/).
let's see it as a chance that  at least the german chapter emphaszises the
political dimension.


On 29 May 2014 15:26, Geert Lovink <geert at xs4all.nl> wrote:

> Sad and predicable or not, I hope the overall attitude towards initatives
> such as CPOV will change. Maybe CPOV itself has died but the critical
> engagement of people towards Wikipedia hasn't changed, I noticed over the
> years. The harsh way beginners are scared off by a small insider's group of
> White male engineers remains the core 'cultural' issue. Jimmy Wales has
> cultivated and reproduced that small circle and the old guard is now part
> of the problem called 'Wikipedia governance', despite numerous efforts to
> change that very culture, from inside, and outside (such as the CPOV
> network). Correct analysis? Geert
>
>
> On 29 May 2014, at 3:03 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph at reagle.org> wrote:
>
> > On 05/29/2014 06:43 AM, nathaniel tkacz wrote:
> >> it's sad and predictable.
> >
> > How can anything so weird be thought predictable? (Unless you are taking
> > Theresa Preston-Werner's meddling at GitHub as the new normal?)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > cpov mailing list
> > cpov at listcultures.org
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/cpov_listcultures.org
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cpov mailing list
> cpov at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/cpov_listcultures.org
>



-- 
johanna niesyto | venloer str. 227-231 | 50823 koeln
tel.: 0049 (0)221  453 963 22 | mobil: 0049 (0)178  4154386
twitter: @elkeschmidt | blog: transnationalspaces.net
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From nathanieltkacz at gmail.com  Thu May 29 17:15:05 2014
From: nathanieltkacz at gmail.com (nathaniel tkacz)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 16:15:05 +0100
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
Message-ID: <CAK+4DjY=7WeRzMRjfWtga=XzEimXsYmehHU7UdtUXhRtpy0LSQ@mail.gmail.com>

well the specific details aren't predictable, but it's not exactly the
first time this kind of thing has happened. i'm not even talking
specifically about wikipedia. i think the dynamics of list cultures lend
themselves to these kinds of developments. call it a crisis of good faith!
you can even see it all the attempts to maintain civility, but at a point
it becomes disingenuous and strategic.

n


On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph at reagle.org> wrote:

> On 05/29/2014 06:43 AM, nathaniel tkacz wrote:
> > it's sad and predictable.
>
> How can anything so weird be thought predictable? (Unless you are taking
> Theresa Preston-Werner's meddling at GitHub as the new normal?)
>
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From athina.k at gmail.com  Thu May 29 18:27:43 2014
From: athina.k at gmail.com (Athina Karatzogianni)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 17:27:43 +0100
Subject: <CPOV> wikimedia-l weirdness
In-Reply-To: <CAK+4DjY=7WeRzMRjfWtga=XzEimXsYmehHU7UdtUXhRtpy0LSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsSBnoi=437xv-GiX+jCB794_xqoqaqmn7YDf3pBTWO1enuSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAK+4DjY4MqCg6nxkAb9zoVUYTKp4sqGB5L9Sts+_brURzndZgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<53873012.7040800@reagle.org>
	<CAK+4DjY=7WeRzMRjfWtga=XzEimXsYmehHU7UdtUXhRtpy0LSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFCFw4DHTGEBRRuaXFZXaTLvehW-mLNgMQHbaWL-pnnm7G1WNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

My two pennies, just from personal experience (which of course no one can
extrapolate from), I agree with Geert's and Nate's take down to the t.

Academically, I still think about governance and conflict along these lines
we outlined with Michaelides back in 2008-9
Cyberconflict at the Edge of Chaos: Cryptohierarchies and Self-organization
in the Open Sourcehttp://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/2/

if anyone is interested

Best

Athina


On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 4:15 PM, nathaniel tkacz
<nathanieltkacz at gmail.com>wrote:

> well the specific details aren't predictable, but it's not exactly the
> first time this kind of thing has happened. i'm not even talking
> specifically about wikipedia. i think the dynamics of list cultures lend
> themselves to these kinds of developments. call it a crisis of good faith!
> you can even see it all the attempts to maintain civility, but at a point
> it becomes disingenuous and strategic.
>
> n
>
>
> On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph at reagle.org> wrote:
>
>> On 05/29/2014 06:43 AM, nathaniel tkacz wrote:
>> > it's sad and predictable.
>>
>> How can anything so weird be thought predictable? (Unless you are taking
>> Theresa Preston-Werner's meddling at GitHub as the new normal?)
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cpov mailing list
> cpov at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/cpov_listcultures.org
>
>


-- 
<http://www.routledge.com/books/search/keywords/karatzogianni/>
Dr Athina Karatzogianni<http://www2.hull.ac.uk/fass/socsci/staff/academic-staff/karatzogianni,-athina.aspx>
Senior Lecturer in New Media and Political Communication
Director of Media at Social Sciences
Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
The University of Hull
United Kingdom
HU6 7RX
T: ++44 (0) 1482 46 6083
E: a.karatzogianni at hull.ac.uk

Read me on Selected Works
Bepress<http://works.bepress.com/athina_karatzogianni/>
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